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(@jbruce)
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16/04/2020 10:28 pm  
Posted by: @adrian_hamilton

Any views on multi angle side edge guides e.g. Toko Edge Tuner Pro? 

Problem with multi angle guides tends to be with accuracy and durability. With plastic guides, you can have warpage from after they come out of mold so they could be slightly twisted, convex etc., more so with cheap stuff. My experience is the plastic running surfaces tend to wear, and pick up debris (wax and filings) on the glide surfaces, which can throw angles off a smidge as well as scratch the base. A metal frame and glide plate can lessen this or eliminate these issues depending on how its done.

The issue then becomes, is the adjustment accurately reproducible. Stacked wedges can get damaged, wear, warp or have build up of debris (wax, fine metal residues). Threaded adjustments can have slop in the threaded mechanism, or be thrown off by tightness. Ramped mechanisms can have wear, or build up of debris. Depending on construction there can be a number of parts, and the accuracy of the whole is dependent on the accuracy of the individual parts and how they interact as a mechanism, and how well you can maintain that accuracy. How does it adjust and how well does it lock in position. Is it a positive positioning, or is it vague or not well defined (tiny scale, minute adjustment causing massive change). Also will it drift after you have set it.

Keep in mind f you are getting a tool to just do a rough minimalist basic tune-ie just use a file to take off larger amounts once and a while, reproducibility of the exact same angle as before is not as important as essentially you are blazing a new trail each time with the equivalent of a bulldozer.

If on the other hand you want to go thru a fleet of skis of various angles and just kiss the edge after daily use or between race runs and you are starting with a 400 stone or maybe just a 600, if it is not following the same path you may be doing absolutely nothing to the business end of the edge. Becomes even more problematic if you are running multiple guides each one dedicated to different tools / grits. This is where preset machined metal guides definitely tend to win out.

Now in regard to the Toko Edge tuner pro, I have not used it, so this is kind of random opinion so take with grain of salt. It does look ergonomic and would probably fit nice in the hand -not a bad thing and that is the downside of most machined set angle guides. The roller wheels are better I think than the plastic gliders on the non pro version for the reasons up top. Keep in mind the wheels can still pick up debris, and it may not be apparent unless you give them a spin to see the complete surface. They may be able to push filings and scratch, but I would expect them to probably just bump over them. For the most part I would expect most large debris to just drop straight through -probably better than a full plate guide. No idea how the axles are done and if there would be any issues in long term. I would hope that the contact wheels to all contact a flat surface at the same time (and not rock), but I would check to make sure. If you are trying to work the ski tips you may find the wheels lose contact though.

For the clamp, does it press evenly on the file or stone, or is it biased either inside or outside allowing or causing the stone or file to tip or rock. Keep in mind not all stones are rectangular cross-sections. You seem to have limited clamping options with it, so I expect you to be limited to short files and stones (ie 100mm?). It also may limit how much of the file or stone you can use as you may not be able to angle them very much by the looks of it. On a ski with a deep sidecut you probably will just be contacting the ends of the file or stone. The clamping plate looks like it hangs out a bit -not sure if it would bump into some bindings on a really narrow waisted ski.

No idea how the adjustment mechanism is done. Likely done by thread / ramp, no idea of how accurate it would be or if it has a positive lock or if debris can get inside to noticeably affect it. If a nice positive positioning/ lock it could be OK. Only way to know is to fiddle with one and if seems OK buy and try. On the plus side with a 5 degree bevel you could maybe use it to trim your sidewall if nothing else. My 2 cents, hope it helps.


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(@geepers)
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25/04/2020 12:13 am  

@jbruce

James, what do you do to prepare skis for off-season storage?


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(@adrian_hamilton)
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26/04/2020 10:27 am  

There is no off season when you have an indoor snow slope 20 miles away, so my skis are in use all year round.


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(@geepers)
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27/04/2020 12:51 pm  

@adrian_hamilton

Something like this would be good for the backyard.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1745827105445103


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(@adrian_hamilton)
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27/04/2020 1:16 pm  

I used to teach on a dry slope quite a few years ago. I taught hundreds, maybe thousands of hours on there. I even helped to build the slope which was 90m by about 25m. The owner decided to keep the cost down by not buying completed mats but buying snakes of the matting which had to be bound together to make the mats. It was tiring work.

At the time, I actually did consider constructing a short slope in my back garden, enough for maybe 1 short turn. Recently a friend of mine has looked into it, but I think he's just suffering withdrawal symptoms form skiing 3 or 4 times a week indoors.

It's very abrasive stuff and I have the scars to prove it. We used to have a lot of slopes in the UK, though fewer since indoor snowslopes came along. Dave Rydings who is ranked in the world's top 15 in slalom and had a second place in Kitzbuhel a couple of years back did all of his early racing on one not far from me. He only started racing on snow in his late teens.

With a snowslope in Manchester, I have no desire to return to Dendix.


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(@jbruce)
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27/04/2020 10:01 pm  
Posted by: @geepers

@jbruce

James, what do you do to prepare skis for off-season storage?

Generally speaking this is a good time to do an overall inspection. Check bindings -screws, broken parts, wear etc. Check bases for damage, flatness, oxidation. Check sidewalls and topsheet for damage. Put the skis back to back with the brakes up and check the profiles both for camber and symmetry. Some people like to back off bindings and have a technician reset in fall. Not sure how necessary it is with current binding designs but doubt it hurts. Upside is it makes you double check for important changes -ie your weight, age, ability and boot sole prior to skiing.

Based on their current condition also think of how the ski will be used again -is it a rock ski, or time to be a rock ski? Under what ski conditions skis will be used again. If you finished on soft marginal conditions and will start on soft marginal conditions, not a lot to be gained by going wild and bringing base and edge to perfection just to ding more rocks. If it is a side country powder ski and you hit a lot of stumps and rock, not a lot sense giving it a race tune sharp enough to ski on ice.

Ask yourself what you can live with and what needs to be done to suit the ski's purpose to you. It is your investment you are protecting and your $$ you are using up every time you ski it or tune it, so get what you think of as value to you for your efforts.

If it is a frontside ski that you will start the season with, maybe a light tune now makes sense and after the coverage is good on the slopes, then maybe take it in for a base grind a few weeks into the season (if it needs it) and then doing a full on tuneup. If it will just be brought out mid season, then probably bring it to full condition before you put it to bed for summer. For myself I tend to expect early season damage so I take that in account and tend to not do base grinds or file out huge amounts of rock damage until conditions are good. That said you want them sharp enough to deal with your typical early season conditions (snow making) but keep in mind a slightly forgiving ski can be nice until you get you ski legs back (which is an individual thing). If you intend on selling it I find a cleaned up, tuned up ski ready to hit the snow gets a better price and sells easier.

No matter what, I'd say if you have damage down to the core fix it even if insignificant to keep moisture out, but let ski dry well before you fix them. Then do what ptex work you feel is needed given objectives. If bases are oxidized consider removing oxidation to allow better wax penetration (may consider skipping this step if you intend to do a early season base grind next season). Remove any rust off edges so rust does not grow and pit steel. Sharpen edges as needed keeping in mind objectives (warning, base damage can make guides not track accurately if damage projects out -ie bases are not flat).

Clean bases (lots of dirt in late season snow) with either hot scraping or specialized base cleaner (not wax remover). Wax with a warm wax, or maybe a base prep wax. If bases were dry you may want to do multiple passes, if bases were well saturated too many extra passes could also have negative effect on ski construction and adhesives, so looking for a happy balance between the two. Most people stop with this wax, some finish with a mid temp wax so they just scrape and ski at the start of the next season. In either case do not scrape final wax off base. For edges scraping them keeps any slight amount of humidity that seeps out of the base from being trapped between the edge and the wax causing rust. If doing this I would put some oil on the edges for protection and wipe it off prior to scraping at start of season.

Store in low humidity and moderate temp if you can, no straps. Separate so brakes do not effect camber, or at least try to unlock brakes. Stand separated against a wall base out (making sure they can't fall over in a pile), or hang flat base up.

Being kind of general here, if you have specifics feel free to ask.


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(@adrian_hamilton)
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28/04/2020 9:37 am  

@jbruce thanks for this James. Even though I don't decommission anything, there's still some useful information. It's great to have your wealth of knowledge on here.


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(@geepers)
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29/04/2020 6:56 am  

@jbruce Again, good comments.

For many decades we didn't own any skis as we were only skiing a limited amount (sometimes as little as 3 days) each season. More recently started doing many more days (120 days one glorious season) and begun accumulating equipment.

Been interesting to see how various items have dealt with storage. My well used Blizzard Bushwackers show no effect from storage with no special treatment at all. My wife's Nordica Belles will start to corrode the metal edges as soon as the skis stop moving - I've found that covering the edges with masking tape seems to work best but it's a battle with those skis. 

Also have some Rossignol Experience 84s. They did show some discoloration if not taped up when back home. Although previous season I left them in Canada with my son. They got no special treatment and were in mint condition this season. Seems my city (Sydney) is harder on metal than inland Canada.

The latest are Dynastar SpeedMaster SLs. They are showing some discoloration at the inside part of the edges - where the metal contacts the base. For the time being I've coated them heavily in wax and taped them. From your other tuning advice I think a base grind would be timely after which waxing and then will try oil rather than tape.

Not yet sure if we'll get to ski in the south this winter. It won't be from lack of snow/desire. 🙄 


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(@jbruce)
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29/04/2020 3:30 pm  
Posted by: @geepers

Been interesting to see how various items have dealt with storage. My well used Blizzard Bushwackers show no effect from storage with no special treatment at all. My wife's Nordica Belles will start to corrode the metal edges as soon as the skis stop moving - I've found that covering the edges with masking tape seems to work best but it's a battle with those skis. 

Also have some Rossignol Experience 84s. They did show some discoloration if not taped up when back home. Although previous season I left them in Canada with my son. They got no special treatment and were in mint condition this season. Seems my city (Sydney) is harder on metal than inland Canada.

The latest are Dynastar SpeedMaster SLs. They are showing some discoloration at the inside part of the edges - where the metal contacts the base.

Steel edges come in different formulations, so as you've noticed they are not all equal. Decades ago I had a Toko product for edges -essentially a pen with a notched felt tip that applied a thin clear coating on edges. Would not be surprised if it was just clear lacquer. Hard to remember that far back but I think it had a lacquer smell. More from the days when you saw a lot of skis on car roofs so lot of road salt on skis back then. Coating just wore off as you skied IIRC. Maybe nail polish might be similar?? Would need an applicator that would just do the edges with a thin coat?? Might be worth an experiment.

For Sydney you will have salt in the air leaving a coating on everything. My understanding is for seaside ski resorts they also have issue with salt on snow pack (effects the moisture content of the snow so for racing you have to adjust your wax selection for the altered moisture level). This has to mean that your skis will have salt on them by default. Cleaning base and edges with clean water and then dry may help. Not sure how far from the coast this would be an issue. I'm far, far from any ocean so not on my radar.

 


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(@adrian_hamilton)
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29/04/2020 3:49 pm  

I had never even thought of that. I wonder if Skinerd finds this an issue with his mountain being so close to the ocean.

When we worked there I didn't notice it to be honest but then again I had very little at my disposal to maintain my skis during that season. I have no recollection of significant issues with the edges when we got back home.


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(@geepers)
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30/04/2020 6:38 am  

The lacquer idea sounds good - as long as it is not too hard to remove at the beginning of the season.

Again, thanks for the advice.


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(@jbruce)
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30/04/2020 2:16 pm  

@geepers application would be the hard part. The toko product I had had a narrow felt tip with a right angle notch and a feed hole for the liquid in the center of the notch. Think you could flake it off with your finger nail, but this was decades ago so can't be sure. Not sure of issues if you get lacquer on bases -I would expect a saturated base to repel it but a dry base may be different, though an oxidized base does not absorb wax very well either. If you try to improvise I'd give it a try on a section of a rock ski so you can compare original to modified. See how easy you can apply it, how to remove it, and does it seem to effect the base or wax absorption if it gets on base (may be hard to tell this unless you do a long term ski test though). For extent of rust protection I'd drape a wet cloth across the ski over a few days and check once in a while to see what happens and when.

 


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