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Advanced Parallel-ish + Short Turn-ish + Carv data

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Howdy folks!

New dude here, and I've massively enjoying checking out everything happening in this community. Insanely good skiing info combined with a sense of humor = my friggin happy place. I'm a current CSIA/CASI/PSIA/AASI Level 1; my Level 2 plan ended with COVID last winter. In an ideal world I'm striving to get my ski level 3 and my board level 2 within the next few seasons. I'm hoping to transition into instruction as a winter job, but I've got my work cut out for me. 

I figured I'd add to the joint with some video for you to critique and some Carv data for you to check out. I've seen questions about Carv pop up, so if I can be of any use here please let me know. The first half of the video is me first doing some "sorta" advanced parallel turns, and the Carv data is from this run. Stick around for the amusing ending! The second half a rough attempt at some short turns. 

I've got my own list of ski sins I see in these runs, but if yall are game I'd love to get your critiques and suggestions for improvement!

 

15 Answers
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Well done @kable. I think @adrian_hamilton ‘s assessment is right on point. You show really strong angulation at the hip, which tips the skis over nicely. This is an excellent move but I would adjust the timing slightly as it does have a downside.

The problem with hip angulation is two fold.

1) It requires some separation, so if you use it all up at the start of the turn there’s no more left for the bottom of the turn. This is why the turn shape elongates a touch at the bottom.

And 2) There is quite a bit of mass around the hips, so that much angulation at the top of the arc where there isn’t much force yet will move balance towards the inside ski. In this case you can see the outside ski wander away a couple times at the top of the arc. Fortunately there is enough side cut there that they keep coming back:)

In this case I usually focus on the foot rolling move into the fall line as this lets your edges grip early but keeps your pelvis aligned closer over your feet. Then once the forces have built up enough to support you drop the hip inside. You’ll probably see the arc tighten a little towards the bottom and accelerate your mass across the slope.

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Topic starter

 

Posted by: @geepers

It's always hard to get a fix on terrain from video. My experience is that AP is done on intermediate terrain, normally groomed but not to say that it won't get clumped up somewhat with traffic. With L3 shorts they generally drag us to very steep terrain and it's generally very firm snow just to up the challenge.

 

Yeah, the conditions here probably don't match either examination situation very accurately. Pretty darn soft, and certainly not steep enough for short radius. I've been watching short radius videos to try and get a sense of the standard, but I confess that even the CSIA stuff seems to be...varied. I'm not certain what's considered the minimally acceptable amount of deflection. If we're keeping the tails on the snow I'm fairly comfortable in my movements, but once we start almost hopping into the turns to get the radius down to minuscule levels I feel like my form quickly devolves into chaos. I guess it's about maintaining appropriate speed for the terrain. 

 

Aside: skier #17 in the CSIA Level 3 videos is a boss. Blows me away every time.

 

Posted by: @geepers

On the AP I recognise aspects of my own skiing from last March in Canada. In the Australian season (such as it was) worked on getting higher performance with more inclination before angulation. Trying to overcome the temptation to use up too much angulation too early and having little range of motion left for the rest of the turn.

 

Yep, I see it too. I spent a few hours today trying to practice inclination -> angulation, and it felt far more natural. I also tried to reserve some zip for the bottom of the turn by bringing the outside hand down and in a bit post apex. Anything to keep from getting static and locked out.

 

Posted by: @skinerd

1) It requires some separation, so if you use it all up at the start of the turn there’s no more left for the bottom of the turn. This is why the turn shape elongates a touch at the bottom.

 

Totally agree. I run out of moves before the end, and at that point I become hostage to the turn. 

 

Posted by: @skinerd

2) There is quite a bit of mass around the hips, so that much angulation at the top of the arc where there isn’t much force yet will move balance towards the inside ski. In this case you can see the outside ski wander away a couple times at the top of the arc. Fortunately there is enough side cut there that they keep coming back:)

 

This makes complete sense. it's funny because I really do have everything, maybe even too much, on the outside ski 95% of the time, which shows up in the Carv data, but there are turns where I completely wiff and have the runaway right from the start. It resonates that it comes from a timing error. Forcing myself onto the ski rather than having it come as a natural byproduct of my actions.

 

Posted by: @skinerd

In this case I usually focus on the foot rolling move into the fall line as this lets your edges grip early but keeps your pelvis aligned closer over your feet. Then once the forces have built up enough to support you drop the hip inside. You’ll probably see the arc tighten a little towards the bottom and accelerate your mass across the slope.

 

Perfect. Syncs up with what I worked on today but it give me a better cue for how to work on the inclination, making the angulation a result rather than an initial tactic. 

 

Posted by: @skinerd

BTW interesting to see the Carve data!

 

It's an interesting tool with some definite limitations. I currently have the 25th highest score for a run in the US this season (SkiIQ of 152) which is clearly absurd, even when accounting for all the obvious limiters like who both has these things and is participating in the leaderboard. Some of the stats only work in ideal conditions, particularly stuff like symmetry which goes out of whack if you have to take a few long turns to one side or another because of the run or traffic.  It's also unfortunate that it only works with averages over the course of when you start and stop the assessment. All the top rated runs are for under a minute of skiing for this reason. It'd be far more useful if you could trim the runs after the fact and focus on things down to the individual turn. I also find it fairly noticeable in the right boot, although not in the left.

 

On the other hand, it's useful feedback when working by yourself, and it's highlighted that I have serious issues with fore/aft balance. Forward stance is usually my lowest metric by far, which I initially found confusing because I've always pressed the front of my shins to the extreme. But when I saw the data and did some research I realized that really none of that was really hitting the ski, it's just been dissipating into the front of the boot. I've started focusing on going ball -> arch -> heel with mixed success so far, but when I get it right I can feel the difference in grip with the ski. I've played with backing off my buckles quite a bit to regain some additional mobility. I honestly have no idea how my boots should fit anymore! ? ? 

 

I genuinely appreciate all the responses, and the feedback is a massive help! I find I progress best when I overshoot the mark and then back off, so I'm happy when I hear I'm overdoing something. I'm about a month into owning carving skis for the first time, so the sensations are still pretty new. I'll try to snag video of the tweaks next week.

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Posted by: @geepers

8 meters is fairly wide so good leeway there.

The other criteria that has been mentioned (on courses) is tempo - about one second per turn. Is that not so much the focus now?

Approx 1 cat track is about the right corridor. I assume 5 to 8 meters refers to the vertical distance as it would otherwise seem awfully wide for a short turn. 

I’ve not heard any specifics mentioned regarding a tempo that meets the standard, but 1 second (give or take) sounds appropriate.

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@kable nice skiing here Kevin. You get some pretty high edge angles and the ski performance is really good. Your turns are symmetrical and the arcs rounded. Really nice.

What was your objective was in the long turns and were you focusing on an outcome of attaining certain numbers for CARV?

I'm not going to bombard you with a detailed analysis but my thoughts stem from the question above. I see you moving inside really quickly, fixing the angle you want and staying there. If I were working with you, I would like to see you be a bit more progressive in your movements and moving inside as the forces develop rather than into a fixed position. That way you can affect the radius more and your movements inside are the outcome of the forces you are balancing to rather than a predetermined outcome.

I would definitely wait to see what Skinerd thinks as he's the guru around here but that would be my initial focus with you as it gives you greater scope to control the radius of your turns.

I'm sure you would have killed the Level 2 exam, certainly the skiing. If I were you I would get the Level 2 boxed off early next season and start on the pathway to Level 3.

Thanks for the kind words!

 

What was your objective was in the long turns and were you focusing on an outcome of attaining certain numbers for CARV?

 

Main goal was actually to keep the turns on the shorter side. I find that when left to my own devices I like to really drag these turns out as far as possible. I vaguely remembered the whole 3 catwalks thing, so I tried counting to 3 in my head to set an appropriate tempo. 

 

Re: Carv. Yeah, there's definitely a bit of numbers chasing here. This is a pretty accurate reflection of my typical scores with this sort of skiing. Balance is always hit or miss, but some of the "get out there early" is absolutely a reflection of seeing how it impacts the numbers. That's a bit of the pro/con of the device. It's good for letting you know what's going on, but it does encourage some "gamification" with your skiing.

 

I see you moving inside really quickly, fixing the angle you want and staying there. If I were working with you, I would like to see you be a bit more progressive in your movements and moving inside as the forces develop rather than into a fixed position. That way you can affect the radius more and your movements inside are the outcome of the forces you are balancing to rather than a predetermined outcome.

 

I like this observation and agree. It's funny, because I'm consciously trying to do the "telemark skiing" type drill on these turns. I'm fighting to bring the new outside ski around level to add dynamics to the turn, but I look totally locked. You can see the ski jump a bit at times, but the outcome does not reflect the effort! 

 

I consider the "locked out" issue a top struggle. I find the best skiing reflects the athleticism of the skier, and that's what I'm chasing for myself. More explosiveness...controlled demolitions if you will. The freeze developed the first time someone asked me to do intermediate parallel, and I quickly realized that I hadn't tried to do that sorta turn at those speeds in 25 years. 

 

I'll make a point of trying to locate that dynamism the next time on the hill for sure.

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Topic starter
image

 

I think this reinforces your point that I get into my angle early and just leave it there...

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Welcome @kable

Second those thoughts on the nice turns.

It's always hard to get a fix on terrain from video. My experience is that AP is done on intermediate terrain, normally groomed but not to say that it won't get clumped up somewhat with traffic. With L3 shorts they generally drag us to very steep terrain and it's generally very firm snow just to up the challenge.

On the AP I recognise aspects of my own skiing from last March in Canada. In the Australian season (such as it was) worked on getting higher performance with more inclination before angulation. Trying to overcome the temptation to use up too much angulation too early and having little range of motion left for the rest of the turn.

Have you watched Section 8's P2P V3 on carving? And eslewhere in the forum there are some Warren Jobbitt vids posted (or search youtube) and they are worth a look.

 

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BTW interesting to see the Carve data!

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Posted by: @kable

Yeah, the conditions here probably don't match either examination situation very accurately. Pretty darn soft, and certainly not steep enough for short radius.

I've only been to two L3 ski offs - I passed the 2nd time and haven't felt the need to resit ? - so limited experience of actual exams. Far as I can tell you have to play the hand dealt by mother nature (hard snow, soft snow, whatever) however the examiners will choose terrain where possible to give candidates a good chance to demo capabilities. For example in the 1st exam we all did a sighting run on one bump field (very steep powder) which some of us loved "please mark that run!!". Wasn't deemed appropriate for some reason so we skied a less challenging run elsewhere. OTOH the AP at advanced speed was conducted on a pitch we'd regularly trained on (good blue run) but clumped up pretty badly with continued traffic. Was kind of wild zinging around at speed.

The 2nd time was in the midst of a freeze/melt cycle and with days getting up to +15 deg C the problem was getting the evaluated runs in before it became a soggy mess. They ran shorts #1 on the ice but not quite as steep as we'd trained, the IP when still firm, the AP at about the perfect time for firm/soft and the bumps were getting soggy.

The real problem was the Teach assess as that is hours on snow and no way to avoid wet heavy snow. Off the groomers was really bad so no bump teaching assigned.

Different story on the Adv Ski and Adv Teach module which I have done quite a few times (in Canada). The shorts and IP are always on steeps. Our local L4s seem to like training on steep bumps too. In fact we've had comments from visiting L4 trainers. They ask where we normally train bumps, we go there, and then they ask if there's anywhere less steep. ?

Probably the moral of the story is be prepared for anything. I make a point of looking for the most awful snow to ski on for at least a good portion of any week. (Not all that hard in Australia on a typical week. ? )

Posted by: @kable

I've been watching short radius videos to try and get a sense of the standard, but I confess that even the CSIA stuff seems to be...varied. I'm not certain what's considered the minimally acceptable amount of deflection.

From what I understand there is some difference of opinion amongst assessors on prime aims of shorts. IIRC Ken Paynter says in his motion analysis vids that he likes to see a rounder turn shape with deflection across the hill even if the tempo is a little slower.

Google "indoor ski session Dr Ken". There's about 7 or 8 of 'em on the relevant youtube channel so lotta viewing. Sorry, didn't make a note where he said that. (Worth watching all for the L3 Teach anyway.)

Others seem to prefer a quicker tempo if the training modules are a guide and that pretty much means less deflection. Otherwise the criteria in that L3 adv shorts vid seems to be consistent in all the training I've had.

@skinerd - what do you think makes a good L3 short in terms of tempo and deflection?

  

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Posted by: @geepers

 

@skinerd - what do you think makes a good L3 short in terms of tempo and deflection?

Funny you should ask. We have an L3 exam coming up at Mount Washington next week, and seeing as there is so much new stuff this year, that question has come up a lot!

Here is the description out of the L3 Candidate’s Guide:

Short Turns

  • (5 - 8m Approx 1 cat track)
  • Advanced Speed
  • Steered
  • Black
  • Groomed
  • Speed remains consistent throughout
  • Round, linked turns
  • Steering results in deflection of COM across the run
  • Edge grip is apparent at or above the fall line
  • Skis remain parallel throughout

I try to stick to this as much as possible. Of course there is still some room for interpretation here, and going big in one of the criteria will often mean sacrifice in another. Ex. A faster rhythm probably means less deflection or later edge grip. The faster speed the better... but not so fast that it leads to loss of control etc. 

So I think there is a range in each of the criteria that is acceptable, you just need to find a blend that demonstrates them all to some degree.

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Be prepared for the worst. I haven’t done the ski exam yet but I think that would be a good maxim. Train on ice, in the rain, everywhere. Ken Paynter saiid  to a group about seeing bad conditions as an opportunity to demonstrate your skill and understanding. This would hold true for the skiing or the teaching.

Those words resonated with me on my teaching exam where teaching performance turns on an easy European black, conditions suddenly deteriorated  with visibility reduced dramatically and snow beginning to fall. Persisting with the same speeds and distances covered would have been marginal at best, so I changed the turn shape slightly, speed, the length of sections to be skied and even slipped in a much slower exercise where I could ski alongside each person in turn along a section, moving from one to the other to isolate a skill.

It’s a bit easier to do in the teaching and adapting to the conditions to display your skill on the skiing portion requires a lot of training in all weathers and conditions. Esta Evans talks at length about this in the video I posted on the Otto’s Videos thread. She encountered horrible conditions for her exam but was prepared and succeeded. She used visualisation techniques the night before, imagining the worst possible conditions and found herself ready for even worse than she encountered so was able to stay confident.

Dr. Jim Taylor talks at length about this in his book ‘Training Your Mind For Athletic Success.’ It’s definitely something I intend to work on more whenever I finally get to the mountains again. Look for the horrible stuff.

 

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Posted by: @skinerd

Here is the description out of the L3 Candidate’s Guide:

Always read the specifications! ? 

8 meters is fairly wide so good leeway there.

The other criteria that has been mentioned (on courses) is tempo - about one second per turn. Is that not so much the focus now?

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Topic starter

https://youtube.com/shorts/dapAlnicY8g

Turn shape and tempo isn’t as good here, but I see a bit of progress in delaying my angulation. 

I think maybe I need to get more inclination off the start of the turn so as to demand the angulation later. I feel like I’m exaggerating my angulation out of proportion to the forces I’m actually generating in the turn. 

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@kable I'm not sure I agree with you. It may be the camera but the this slope doesn't look very steep and I would see the moves quite appropriate to the speed and gradient. 

The turn around 10 seconds is the easiest to see properly and you have nice separation and angulation at the end of the left turn and then roll your ankles and get onto the new edges early in the new turn. You can clearly see the skis bending well before the fall line. I really like this.

Earlier in the run the turns seem a bit more rushed and in the left turn around 5 seconds you rotate your hips suddenly. The skis are hidden by a roller but it looks like they've lost grip momentarily which isn't surprising.

One thing that does jump out to me is that you're stance is quite narrow. This may be right for you but it could also be blocking you from being able to increase the angles and affecting the radius as much as you would like to. It appears to be less the case towards the bottom of the run where the turns look more flowing.

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@kable - quite a lot of good things going on here. It's interesting to compare your skiing with scored and commented CSIA L3 long turns vids.

Scored long turns

Commented long turns

Feel that it's a question of how to increase performance. If we look at the skier in the 6.5-7.0 category (in the scored vid) we see how that skier continues to move inside through the last 1/3rd of the turn. The inside leg continues to flex through the turn for more inclination and angulation increases.

Two things I have found helpful this last year:

  1.  Flexing the inside leg more, into and throughout the new turn (in comfortable increments!) for more inclination. More inclination may not happen (as was the case with me) as angulation was coming on too soon. So then worked on projecting the upper body a little further down the hill at transition (toppling) - again in comfortable increments!
  2. Cue for increasing angulation in the last 1/3rd of the turn was an outward tipping of the shoulders, trying to level them up with the pitch.

In my case they were implemented the other way around. #2 was a cue from a CSIA L4 however it felt like hard work until #1 allowed better balancing against the centripetal forces. Then it suddenly felt much more relaxed and natural.

Enjoy those last weeks/days of the season!

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